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Post by helen on Mar 20, 2009 19:13:45 GMT -5
Thanks - I have received it and will see if I can find some one to link him with. I received a copy of my Grandfather's marriage certificate yesterday. Hasn't helped me much with the village my Grandmother came from - It only mentions canton - and as we all know, that was the main city - the villages weren't mentioned.
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Post by Henry on Mar 20, 2009 19:38:32 GMT -5
Helen,
Do you have the Chinese names for the father and grandfather of your grandmother? If you have this information for the "generational" character ( bon pie) of their "hao" ( marriage name) for the father and grandfather - then you can ask the Overseas Chinese Affairs Office of Zhengcheng county to identify those villages with that surname with those consecutive generational characters and then call the villages chiefs of those villages to search for genealogy books with those two consecutive names - generally, the genealogy lineages use the "haos" as their entries instead of the "milk/birth" names, which may be included in the genealogy book because at the time when the genealogy book was compiled, the man was not yet married and had not received the "hao" from his father..
Of course, this is assuming your grandparents were from Zhengcheng county - also, if you know the identity of the ancestral village of your grandfather - your grandmother's village will probably be within walking distance. But, you conduct your research in the county where the ancestral village of your grandfather is located.
My friend in Beijing and I were able to use this method when we only had the name and county of a person to start with and in the end - I was able to find and provide the family genealogy book with his entire lineage. What was really neat is that the people in that ancestral village no longer had a copy of the genealogy and I had an extra copy sitting on my bookshelf ! There was even a photo of his uncle in the genealogy book that was published in 1927.
Henry
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Post by laohuaqiao on Mar 21, 2009 8:53:01 GMT -5
Helen, If your grandparents' marriage took place in the village, it is almost certain it was an arranged marriage through a relative or matchmaker. The matchmaker could do the go-between by foot, so as Henry said, the villages usually are within walking distances of each other.
Rural villages within a region in China form a close community, where there are many intermarriages between any 2 villages. Chances are someone in your grandfather's village will know where your grandmother was from because a relative was married into that village. You'll be surprised how small that community really is.
Here, I'm going to tell the story of how I accidentally found my grandmother's grandnephews (her brother's grandchildren or my cousins) and I wasn't even trying to look for them. Three years ago, I was in Taishan and I was interested in seeing different diaolou or watchtowers in the region. A young lady in my village, a distant relative, offered to take me around, on our bicycles, to the diaolou in the nearby villages. We stopped by one village which I knew to be my grandmother's village and, as I was about to enter the village's diaolou, an elderly man in his 70s asked us, being strangers, what we were doing there. After my explanation, he was very kind to take me up the tower himself. Seeing that I was in good hands, the young lady said her great aunt happened to live in the village and wanted to pay her respects, she excused herself.
So, I struck a conversation with the gentleman and mentioned my grandmother came from his village, but unfortunately he was much younger than her, couldn't recall the name and even if he had met her he would've been a small child, too young to remember.
When the young lady came back, she said she found her great aunt, sitting in the teahouse just outside the village. I did some quick mental calculations, my relation with this young lady and this was her great aunt, then I knew exactly who this great aunt was, I recalled meeting her father when I was young and her younger brother who still lives in New York.
On our way out of the village, we found the great aunt still sitting in the teahouse with a gentleman and I went over to introduced myself. I mentioned my grandfather's and my father's name, there wasn't much of a reaction from her, but when I mentioned my grandmother's name she immediately looked over toward the gentleman next to her and said, "This is her kin folk". I was stunned. The gentleman turned out to be one of my great uncle's grandchildren.
We chatted briefly before I left. This past summer I paid the cousin a visit and found another brother also in that village, and through them located descendants of a great aunt (grandmother's sister).
Anyway, the point of my story is the rural countryside in China is really a small world, locating female members of our family trees maybe easier than one expected.
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Post by helen on Mar 21, 2009 18:11:10 GMT -5
Thanks for your comments Henry and Laohuaqiao - The marriage certificate is all in English, and seems to be all the same handwriting. Even the signatures look like they are in "the same" script. My Grandmother's last name looks like "Que", but I haven't heard of a name like that before. Her brother was known as Au Yeung Kam Choon - so her surname look nothing like "Au Yeung". When both my Grandmothers returned to China in 1933, it was to Sa Chuen village. I do have a photo of my Grandmother as a young lady; and also one of her with her mother, at an even younger age. I will take copies of these back to the village in June, and pray some one will know of her, and our other Grandmother.
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Post by laohuaqiao on Mar 22, 2009 6:10:05 GMT -5
Helen, Since this is an old marriage certificate, I'm assuming "q" in your grandmother's surname is pronounced similar to a "k" sound rather than the "q" in mandarin pinyin which in other romanization systems is "ts". In Cantonese 喬 Kiu and 瞿 Koeu are two surnames that sounds close to "Que".
In your case, the more interesting word is 區, meaning district, which is normally pronounced koeu in Cantonese. It's also a surname, but as a surname it's pronounce Ao, exactly the same as 歐 Ao in 歐陽 Au Yeung. 歐 Ao by itself is also a surname. There is similarity both in the writing and the sound, someone not familiar with it might translate it as "Que".
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Post by Henry on Mar 22, 2009 6:42:14 GMT -5
Helen,
I am so glad that laohuaqiao is able to provide so much on the semantics of these Chinese characters and romanizations - whew !
It appears that you know, Sa Chuen village, as the name of the ancestral village of your grandmother? Do you know where this village is located? If you know where it is and know the name of the father of your grandfather - the village chief maybe able to identify village relatives and/or find and copy the family genealogy book for the father of your grandmother.
Henry
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Post by laohuaqiao on Mar 22, 2009 7:20:12 GMT -5
Henry, With a dictionary on hand, even someone like me who flunk Chinese in elementary school in HK could sound somewhat intelligent.
Chinese is a very complex language with a rich history, and I'm learning something new every day. While writing the response to Helen above, I've just realized that the words 喬 Kiu and 瞿 Koeu are Qiao and Qu respectively in pinyin. Since Cantonese maintain more of the ancient Chinese while mandarin has evolved, it seems that many "k" sounds have evolved into "q" sounds in mandarin. It makes me think the designers of the pinyin system were not totally off their rockers when they decided to use "q" Chinese romanization.
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Post by helen on Mar 24, 2009 2:56:44 GMT -5
Thanks laohuaqiao and henry - It maybe that the last name of grandmother is Ao /Au- just need to find a village to match. I have some black and white photos from 1948 - taken in Canton - I assumed they were my Mother's side of the family. But her siblings don't recognise anyone. So I have to assume they were my Father's Sa Chuen family. I just recognise my Mum and Dad. I will prepare a photo album to take with me, so I can at least get some Chinese characters to the photos
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Post by harc3 on Mar 28, 2009 23:07:33 GMT -5
Yes we found it. Finally found the document of my Grandfather arriving in Canada. I first believed it was 1904. This is not the case. He arrived March 27 1895 from JUNG DAI, CHANG SING (Cheung Dai, ZhengCheng) as you all confirmed earlier. His name was Chin Yee Chong on the document (I think it should have been Lee)
I found the arrival document and then used the CI36 number (This is a replacement copy of his CI5 Head Tax Certificate) to look at another registry and THAT one confirmed it to be my Grandfather. On that document he is Chin Lee Chong of Vernon and other name used was Chin Yee Chong Very exciting to me!!!! Still need to keep digging though to get confirmation of his wife and go back further and further YAY!!!!!!!!
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Post by helen on Mar 29, 2009 4:31:55 GMT -5
He may have come twice. My Grandfather arrived in N Z as an 11 year old, and went back as an adult. He was married in China in 1902, and returned as a 21 year old in 1904. I recently got hold of his marriage certificate which stated he and Grandmother had previously married in China in 1902; and subsequently married again in NZ in 1920.
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Post by Henry on Mar 29, 2009 8:37:52 GMT -5
Harc3,
Congratulations !
Chinese genealogy research can be exasperating - but, so rewarding when you make such break-through. This is also a further confirmation on the name and location of your ancestral village.
Henry
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Post by harc3 on Apr 3, 2009 9:11:47 GMT -5
WELL!!!!!! Through the help of this site and the people on it I have found the village etc which my ancestors came from. Cheung Dai
With some overwhelming amount of help from "Helen" of this site not only do I have the village etc. but now I found living relatives in the village. I have not been in contact with them yet but Helen has. Helen and I have been communicating back and forth. With the info I have provided this person is confident we are related. I don't want to divulge who or how they are related to us because my brothers and sisters also check the boards and I don't want to spoil the surprise. They do know we found someone related but that's all they know at this point.
It has all been very rewarding, although very frustrating too at times cuz of the name thing,
Kinda overwhelmed with emotion and can't wait for initial contact (will be by phone first). Then I will be going to China.
Thanks to all and I have said it a million times especially to Helen for all she has done these past few weeks....
Will let you all know how contact goes
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k3
Member
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Post by k3 on Apr 4, 2009 14:21:37 GMT -5
I am the brother of Harc3. The time, effort and hard work that has been done by all of you, has been overwhelming! We cannot thank you enough for what you have done, and hopefully one day we can repay all of you. Thank you!
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Post by Henry on Apr 4, 2009 19:46:58 GMT -5
K3 & Harc3, You and your family are most welcomed! I think I can speak for the Forum members that have helped, each in there own way - we enjoy helping and also learn during the process of trying to help others. My philosophy is that - for all the help and kindness that has been extended to me - I always try to extend the same help and kindness to others. Your gracious thanks and acknowledgement is much appreciated. Henry
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Post by geeweilum on Apr 4, 2009 23:19:38 GMT -5
I am also eternally greatful for Henry's efforts on behalf of everyone. I met Henry personally not long after meeting him on this forum. He and his wife were very gracious and I will not forget. I wish I too be as helpful as he but I will try i n future to provide any input that I can minor as it will be any help " Paraphrasing Confucious's sayings" the first and one brick is but the beginning of a Great Wall of Knowledge. Henry has already buit quite a bit for this forum I hope I can contribute to some of the other sections of this forum in the future. Possibly in regard to the Gee Clan as I know of it Thanks Henry Geeweilum
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