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Post by aremanvin on Apr 10, 2017 9:03:27 GMT -5
Hi all, Im new member at this forum, I already almost desperate to get more information for my family tree and finally found this forum that discusses overseas Chinese family tree I am a chinese indonesian living in indonesia I am the 5th generation chinese-indonesian Currently I'm making a family tree to give to the next generation of my family I'm looking for some missing link about my ancestors who are still original from china My family tree in paternal side is stuck only up my great-grandfather I want to know more about the generation above of my great-grandfather My great-grandfather name is Oei Twan Bie from Pare, Kediri, one of the villages in East Java - IndonesiaMy great-great-grandfather name is Tjioe Tjiong Ka, My great-great-grandmother name is Liem Tien NioOne day on the way back from China to the Indonesia, Tjioe Tjiong Ka died from the storm, his ship sank to the bottom of the sea and we never had anything left from him except the name, we also do not know his name in Chinese writing. I only heard that story from my grandfather. Then Liem Tien Nio remarried to a man named Oei Yan Kioe, therefore my great grandfather inherited the clan oei of Oei Yan Kioe
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What I want to know is:First, I want to know more, how to find data from this Tjioe Tjiong Ka (biological father from oei twan bie)? I wanted to know where he was born, who his parents? and perhaps also his ancestors Second, I want to know also about the parents of Liem Tien Nio, who her parents, village of residence and other ancestors Third, I just got updated some information for original village of Oei Yan Kioe so I want to digging some more information about him,about where he was born, about his father, his mother, brother or sister and other older generation from him the information from the headstone Oei Yan Kioe, whose name in Mandarin was Huang Yanqiu 黃延求:
He came from a place called Shenzhai 沈宅, (currently a district of Jianxing Village, Luoxi Town, Luojiang District, Quanzhou City, Fujian Province 福建省泉州市洛江區羅溪鎮建興村).
He died on November 29, 1928 or, according to the lunar calendar, the 18th day of the 10th month in the Confucian year (see previous post) 2468.
so maybe someone in that area/location or near there can help me to find some information from this Oei Yan Kioe? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Below this is the picture of gravestone of Oei Yan Kioe, Oei Twan Bie and Liem Tien Nio when buried in Indonesia, maybe someone in here can give me some new perspective and information that can help me to find other ancestors The Oei Yan Kioe gravestone already translated by greg (gckimm) as the result as i wrote above. Thanks alot greg! Can Anyone Help me Here? Please...PS: All the name above is in hokkien pronunciation I can not read Chinese and can not speak Chinese language
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Post by gckimm on Apr 13, 2017 1:08:11 GMT -5
Hi: I have been trying to translate the grave markers but there are some mysteries I have not been able to figure out. For example, in the second photo, the grave marker appears to contain two different surnames for Oei Yan Kioe:郭 (Guo in Mandarin)and 黃 (Oei = Huang in Mandarin). I have never encountered two different surnames for a male ancestor but I imagine this has something to do with an adopted son also surnamed Guo. Perhaps there is some local custom with which I am not familiar. Also, I have never before encountered a calendar date using the terms 至聖 ("Most Holy"), words which I am guessing refer to Confucius. I can keep working on this but anybody else want to take a crack at the translations? --Greg
Update: finally found an article about numbering years starting with the birth of Confucius. Take the stated Confucian year (至聖xxxx年) and subtract 551 for the year according to the western calendar or take the latter and add 551 for the Confucian year. For example, 1949 = 至聖 2500 年. I learned something new!
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Post by aremanvin on Apr 14, 2017 1:59:18 GMT -5
Hi: I have been trying to translate the grave markers but there are some mysteries I have not been able to figure out. For example, in the second photo, the grave marker appears to contain two different surnames for Oei Yan Kioe:郭 (Guo in Mandarin)and 黃 (Oei = Huang in Mandarin). I have never encountered two different surnames for a male ancestor but I imagine this has something to do with an adopted son also surnamed Guo. Perhaps there is some local custom with which I am not familiar. Also, I have never before encountered a calendar date using the terms 至聖 ("Most Holy"), words which I am guessing refer to Confucius. I can keep working on this but anybody else want to take a crack at the translations? --Greg Update: finally found an article about numbering years starting with the birth of Confucius. Take the stated Confucian year (至聖xxxx年) and subtract 551 for the year according to the western calendar or take the latter and add 551 for the Confucian year. For example, 1949 = 至聖 2500 年. I learned something new! Hello, Thank you finally someone reply me what do you mean there are two surnames for oei yan kioe? oei yan kioe indeed adopt a child that is my great-grandfather named oei twan bie, but I do not know if he has any other adopted children and surnamed Guo Is it possible from Oei Yan Kioe name listed on his tombstone can be known from the village where he came from? then could you help me translate in what years in western year he passed away? and can you help me translate the other tombstone picture? and maybe can you give me a clue how to trace my real biological father of my great-grandfather (tjioe tjiong ka)? thx a lot i really apreciate your reply
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Post by davidwl on Apr 14, 2017 8:18:05 GMT -5
Hi, An Indonesian here as well,
I also encounter the problem you face as well, but, a different one, my maternal family come from china about a hundred years ago and settled in Banyumas in Jawa Tengah, the first generation was named Kho Wan from Yuqing in china. Tracing back a peranakan ancestry may be hard because we are living for generations here. and the main problem may be names, because most chinese Indonesians have 3 names, one a chinese name (Exp :梁宙俊) , a hokkian name with old indonesia spelling (exp: Liong Tiouw Soen) and a indonesian or western names (exp: David Wirawan) . I reccommend that you ask information from your older generation family as they may have more information.
(Sorry if i am kiind of out of the topic)
David Wirawan L.
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Post by aremanvin on Apr 14, 2017 9:30:09 GMT -5
Hi, An Indonesian here as well, I also encounter the problem you face as well, but, a different one, my maternal family come from china about a hundred years ago and settled in Banyumas in Jawa Tengah, the first generation was named Kho Wan from Yuqing in china. Tracing back a peranakan ancestry may be hard because we are living for generations here. and the main problem may be names, because most chinese Indonesians have 3 names, one a chinese name (Exp :梁宙俊) , a hokkian name with old indonesia spelling (exp: Liong Tiouw Soen) and a indonesian or western names (exp: David Wirawan) . I reccommend that you ask information from your older generation family as they may have more information. (Sorry if i am kiind of out of the topic) David Wirawan L. hi david, i already ask the older generation...but they also didnt know and they cant read the word in the tombstone either, so i found this thread and try to make it one...maybe some people can help me with my problem and give more information for me but thanks for your concern I also had asked a sort of ancestral search firm, but they asked for money around 30 million IDR for this case. So I was discouraged and tried to find of my own
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Post by gckimm on Apr 14, 2017 12:21:15 GMT -5
Hi:
Here is the information from the headstone of your great-great grandfather Oei Yan Kioe, whose name in Mandarin was Huang Yanqiu 黃延求:
He came from a place called Shenzhai 沈宅, (currently a district of Jianxing Village, Luoxi Town, Luojiang District, Quanzhou City, Fujian Province 福建省泉州市洛江區羅溪鎮建興村).
He died on November 29, 1928 or, according to the lunar calendar, the 18th day of the 10th month in the Confucian year (see previous post) 2468.
Now this is where things get a little confusing: on the left side of the marker is a list of family members, the people responsible for installing the marker. I will list them in order of appearance:
Son: Duanmei 端美 Adopted son: Guo Jizhi 郭緝志 Daughters: Lianhua, Juhua 蓮花、菊花 Grandsons: Zhou Qianyi, Zhou Qianren 周謙益、周謙仁 Granddaughters: Jianniang, Dunniang, Lunniang, Xiangniang 儉娘、敦娘、論娘、香娘
My guess is that the son Duanmei is your great-grandfather Oei Twan Bie, even though the first character in his name here is different from the first character (傳) in the name on his own headstone. I am not familiar with Hokkien but I know that the second character in both photos (美) is pronounced bi.
My other guess is that since we know that your great-grandfather was adopted by Oei Yan Kioe, the Guo Jizhi listed here was the birth name of Oei Twan Bie. Another clue is that the words “adopted son” are written directly to the right of “Duanmei,” with the name Guo Jizhi following below. I think your great-great-grandfather is named with two surnames, Kuo and then Huang, as a way of saying that when he married Liem Tien Nio and adopted her son, he became the head of the Kuo family as well as his own Huang family. As I mentioned previously, I have never before seen two surnames on a man’s headstone or an adopted son mentioned with two names, but perhaps this was a local custom or just something that Oei Yan Kioe requested as a way of showing respect for the previous husband of his wife.
One problem with the above theory is that you said your great-grandfather’s biological father was Tjioe Tjiong Ka. The surname Tjioe does not seem to match the Mandarin surname Kuo. I wonder if the order of the name has been transposed and it is really Ka Tjioe Tjiong. But we would have to see the Chinese characters to know for sure what his name was.
I will give you information about the other headstones a little later, as I am very busy this weekend and will then be going out of town for a week.
Best wishes, Greg
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Post by aremanvin on Apr 14, 2017 18:47:49 GMT -5
Hi: Here is the information from the headstone of your great-great grandfather Oei Yan Kioe, whose name in Mandarin was Huang Yanqiu 黃延求: He came from a place called Shenzhai 沈宅, (currently a district of Jianxing Village, Luoxi Town, Luojiang District, Quanzhou City, Fujian Province 福建省泉州市洛江區羅溪鎮建興村). He died on November 29, 1928 or, according to the lunar calendar, the 18th day of the 10th month in the Confucian year (see previous post) 2468. Now this is where things get a little confusing: on the left side of the marker is a list of family members, the people responsible for installing the marker. I will list them in order of appearance: Son: Duanmei 端美 Adopted son: Guo Jizhi 郭緝志 Daughters: Lianhua, Juhua 蓮花、菊花 Grandsons: Zhou Qianyi, Zhou Qianren 周謙益、周謙仁 Granddaughters: Jianniang, Dunniang, Lunniang, Xiangniang 儉娘、敦娘、論娘、香娘 My guess is that the son Duanmei is your great-grandfather Oei Twan Bie, even though the first character in his name here is different from the first character (傳) in the name on his own headstone. I am not familiar with Hokkien but I know that the second character in both photos (美) is pronounced bi. My other guess is that since we know that your great-grandfather was adopted by Oei Yan Kioe, the Guo Jizhi listed here was the birth name of Oei Twan Bie. Another clue is that the words “adopted son” are written directly to the right of “Duanmei,” with the name Guo Jizhi following below. I think your great-great-grandfather is named with two surnames, Kuo and then Huang, as a way of saying that when he married Liem Tien Nio and adopted her son, he became the head of the Kuo family as well as his own Huang family. As I mentioned previously, I have never before seen two surnames on a man’s headstone or an adopted son mentioned with two names, but perhaps this was a local custom or just something that Oei Yan Kioe requested as a way of showing respect for the previous husband of his wife. One problem with the above theory is that you said your great-grandfather’s biological father was Tjioe Tjiong Ka. The surname Tjioe does not seem to match the Mandarin surname Kuo. I wonder if the order of the name has been transposed and it is really Ka Tjioe Tjiong. But we would have to see the Chinese characters to know for sure what his name was. I will give you information about the other headstones a little later, as I am very busy this weekend and will then be going out of town for a week. Best wishes, Greg hi greg, WOW! I really appreciate what you did for me This is something new for my family to know the origin village the father of my great-grandfather I'm trying to ask for a name from tjioe tjiong ka itself in Chinese characters to some older generations of my family I have asked but they also do not know because there is no relic whatsoever from tjioe tjiong ka, they only know from a story from my grandfather. Unfortunately right now the generation of my grandfather has all passed away. All I know as i've said before that oei twan bie is actually surnamed tjioe, therefore he named all his sons with the tjioe clan and all his daughters with the clan oei to showing respect to his adoptive father oei yan kioeThe name of my grandfather himself using the tjioe clan by the name of tjioe khiam djien and passed down also to my father by the name of tjioe nan yen
On tombstones of oei twan bie (picture number 1) is there any words or something that can help? sorry if i asked too much i'm realy looking forward for your next information about my great grandmother tombstone (liem tien nio) thanks again greg you're great help for me
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Post by aremanvin on Apr 14, 2017 18:49:16 GMT -5
Hi: Here is the information from the headstone of your great-great grandfather Oei Yan Kioe, whose name in Mandarin was Huang Yanqiu 黃延求: He came from a place called Shenzhai 沈宅, (currently a district of Jianxing Village, Luoxi Town, Luojiang District, Quanzhou City, Fujian Province 福建省泉州市洛江區羅溪鎮建興村). He died on November 29, 1928 or, according to the lunar calendar, the 18th day of the 10th month in the Confucian year (see previous post) 2468. Now this is where things get a little confusing: on the left side of the marker is a list of family members, the people responsible for installing the marker. I will list them in order of appearance: Son: Duanmei 端美 Adopted son: Guo Jizhi 郭緝志 Daughters: Lianhua, Juhua 蓮花、菊花 Grandsons: Zhou Qianyi, Zhou Qianren 周謙益、周謙仁 Granddaughters: Jianniang, Dunniang, Lunniang, Xiangniang 儉娘、敦娘、論娘、香娘 My guess is that the son Duanmei is your great-grandfather Oei Twan Bie, even though the first character in his name here is different from the first character (傳) in the name on his own headstone. I am not familiar with Hokkien but I know that the second character in both photos (美) is pronounced bi. My other guess is that since we know that your great-grandfather was adopted by Oei Yan Kioe, the Guo Jizhi listed here was the birth name of Oei Twan Bie. Another clue is that the words “adopted son” are written directly to the right of “Duanmei,” with the name Guo Jizhi following below. I think your great-great-grandfather is named with two surnames, Kuo and then Huang, as a way of saying that when he married Liem Tien Nio and adopted her son, he became the head of the Kuo family as well as his own Huang family. As I mentioned previously, I have never before seen two surnames on a man’s headstone or an adopted son mentioned with two names, but perhaps this was a local custom or just something that Oei Yan Kioe requested as a way of showing respect for the previous husband of his wife. One problem with the above theory is that you said your great-grandfather’s biological father was Tjioe Tjiong Ka. The surname Tjioe does not seem to match the Mandarin surname Kuo. I wonder if the order of the name has been transposed and it is really Ka Tjioe Tjiong. But we would have to see the Chinese characters to know for sure what his name was. I will give you information about the other headstones a little later, as I am very busy this weekend and will then be going out of town for a week. Best wishes, Greg hi greg, WOW! I really appreciate what you did for me This is something new for my family to know the origin village the father of my great-grandfather I'm trying to ask for a name from tjioe tjiong ka itself in Chinese characters to some older generations of my family I have asked but they also do not know because there is no relic whatsoever from tjioe tjiong ka, they only know from a story from my grandfather. Unfortunately right now the generation of my grandfather has all passed away. All I know as i've said before that oei twan bie is actually surnamed tjioe, therefore he named all his sons with the tjioe clan and all his daughters with the clan oei to showing respect to his adoptive father oei yan kioe The name of my grandfather himself using the tjioe clan by the name of tjioe khiam djien and passed down also to my father by the name of tjioe nan yen On tombstones of oei twan bie (picture number 1) is there any words or something that can help? sorry if i asked too much i'm realy looking forward for your next information about my great grandmother tombstone (liem tien nio) thanks again greg you're great help for me
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Post by gckimm on Apr 14, 2017 21:57:28 GMT -5
Hi: Based on the information you gave about the Tjioe surname, I am now sure that the surname of Tjioe Tjiong Ka is the Mandarin Zhou 周. This explains why on the headstone the grandsons have the Zhou surname (I originally thought that they were the children of a daughter married to a Zhou.) However, this new information does not help to explain the presence of the Guo surname. That is a real mystery! Keep trying to find information about the life of Oei Yan Kioe. What would be really good would be if your family had some kind of genealogical record that could shed some light. Are there any Indonesian records (birth/death/census) that might mention someone adopted?? --Greg
Update: According to my research, the term "出嗣子" refers to a son who was allowed to be adopted by another family. After the death of his biological father or mother, he "returned" to his original family to perform the customary mourning rites. So it seems that Guo Jizhi was the son of Oei Yan Kioe but carried a different surname, the surname of his adoptive family. In Cantonese families, especially in the Siyi region, it was common in former times for a father with more than one son to allow the adoption of a son by a brother or cousin who had no sons. Usually, however, the family adopting the son was of the same surname. Because Guo Jizhi did not carry the Huang (Oei) surname, he could have been adopted by a sister of Oei Yan Kioe who was married to a man surnamed Guo but had no sons of his own. This is just a possibility. See if you can find any references to someone with a surname like "Kok," which I think is the Hokkien pronunciation of Guo.
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Post by aremanvin on Apr 16, 2017 2:27:07 GMT -5
Hi: Based on the information you gave about the Tjioe surname, I am now sure that the surname of Tjioe Tjiong Ka is the Mandarin Zhou 周. This explains why on the headstone the grandsons have the Zhou surname (I originally thought that they were the children of a daughter married to a Zhou.) However, this new information does not help to explain the presence of the Guo surname. That is a real mystery! Keep trying to find information about the life of Oei Yan Kioe. What would be really good would be if your family had some kind of genealogical record that could shed some light. Are there any Indonesian records (birth/death/census) that might mention someone adopted?? --Greg Update: According to my research, the term "出嗣子" refers to a son who was allowed to be adopted by another family. After the death of his biological father or mother, he "returned" to his original family to perform the customary mourning rites. So it seems that Guo Jizhi was the son of Oei Yan Kioe but carried a different surname, the surname of his adoptive family. In Cantonese families, especially in the Siyi region, it was common in former times for a father with more than one son to allow the adoption of a son by a brother or cousin who had no sons. Usually, however, the family adopting the son was of the same surname. Because Guo Jizhi did not carry the Huang (Oei) surname, he could have been adopted by a sister of Oei Yan Kioe who was married to a man surnamed Guo but had no sons of his own. This is just a possibility. See if you can find any references to someone with a surname like "Kok," which I think is the Hokkien pronunciation of Guo. Hi greg, Thank you for providing updated even if you are busy So according to your research that Guo Jizhi is the biological son of Oei Yan Kioe which was later adopted by one of his sister who is married to a person with the surname guo? So do you think Guo Jizhi is different person with Oei Twan Bie? If it is true then this is a new thing for our family when Oei Yan Kioe have son that we never know. Perhaps we will find out more when you translate the writing on the headstone Liem Tien Nio, whether guo Jizhi also listed on it with the term "出 嗣子" Yesterday, I ask the older generation in my family who are still alive, on this point they also never heard of a child with the name Guo Jizhi and they never knew about clan guo / kok. I also ask them about some genenalogical paper record, but they also dont have it Indeed when my older generation is born, Oei yan kioe is already dead, so they just have a little memory of oei yan kioe, and even then only based on the story of their older generation. One more thing may be you can help me, when I've found the village of Oei Yan Kioe or Liem Tien Nio, Is it possible or not I can immediately find out about my ancestors? Or maybe you know what is the procedure to track them? Is it possible it can be tracked online or i have to come directly to China and asked the people in the local village? Thanks a bunch greg
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Post by gckimm on Apr 16, 2017 11:57:10 GMT -5
Hi: The headstone of Liem Tien Nio has the same information about an adopted son named Guo Jizhi. Perhaps because he "left" the Oei family, he was eventually forgotten. I will get back to you in a few days with the information from the other two headstones. --Greg
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Post by aremanvin on Apr 17, 2017 5:52:16 GMT -5
Hi: The headstone of Liem Tien Nio has the same information about an adopted son named Guo Jizhi. Perhaps because he "left" the Oei family, he was eventually forgotten. I will get back to you in a few days with the information from the other two headstones. --Greg oke greg looking forward for your next translation thx again
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Post by gckimm on Apr 20, 2017 16:48:26 GMT -5
Hi--back again.
In regard to the headstone of your great-great-grandmother Liem Tien Nio:
Her name in Mandarin: Lin Zhenniang 林珍娘 Date of death: Confucian year 2468, 3rd month, 17th day = May 7, 1917 All the rest of the information is the same as on the headstone of her husband—including mention of the son adopted by the Guo family, Guo Jizhi. However, there is no use of the Guo surname along with the Huang/Oei surname, as on the other headstone. Perhaps this means—and this is just a guess—that when Liem Tien Nio died in 1917, Mr. Guo, the adoptive father of Guo Jizhi, was still alive but when Oei Yan Kioe died in 1928, Mr. Guo, the adoptive father of Guo Jizhi, had already died, causing Oei Yan Kioe (or his family members) to consider him to be the head of the Guo family as well as the Huang (Oei) family.
In regard to the headstone of your great-grandparents Oei Twan Bie and Sie Hway Nio:
His name in Mandarin: Huang Chuanmei 黃傳美 (note here that his name is slightly different from the one on his father’s headstone; I will get back to this in a moment) His date of death: February 7, 1950 Her name in Mandarin: Shi Huainiang 施懷娘 Her date of death: September 6, 1944 Sons: Qianyi, Qianren 謙益、謙仁 Daughters: Qianniang, Qiandunniang, Qianlunniang, Qianxiangniang 謙娘、謙敦娘、謙倫娘、謙香娘
The headstone of Oei Twan Bie and Sie Hway Nio is very problematic. I believe that either the person who instructed the headstone carver or the headstone carver himself was somewhat lacking in Chinese literacy, as there are a number of apparent errors. Remember that 16 years had passed from the time that Oei Yan Kioe died in 1928 and Sie Hway Nio died in 1944. Perhaps by that time, the ability of family members to read and write Chinese had declined, as often happens in overseas Chinese communities. In any case, many of the characters on this headstone do not match what is on the older headstones:
The name of Oei Twan Bie is written here 傳美 (Chuanmei) instead of 端美 (Duanmei) The names of daughters 2, 3, and 4 have an extra character 謙 (Qian) in their names The name of the first daughter is written 謙 (Qian) instead of 儉 (Jian) The name of the third daughter is written 倫instead of 論 (both pronounced lun)
Without seeing another source of information, it is impossible to tell which are the correct characters. But my rule in doing genealogical research is to trust first the oldest information. Following this rule, I would say that the characters on the headstones of Oei Yan Kioe and Liem Tien Nio are the ones that are correct.
One last thing: the two characters at the top right and left are Anxi 安溪, which is a county in Fujian. But Shenzhai, the place mentioned on the headstones of Oei Yan Kioe and Liem Tien Nio, is not in Anxi County. Anxi here may be another error.
Unless you can find someone outside China who has more genealogical information, you will have to go to China to learn more about your family roots.
Greg
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Post by aremanvin on Apr 21, 2017 2:34:41 GMT -5
Hi--back again. In regard to the headstone of your great-great-grandmother Liem Tien Nio: Her name in Mandarin: Lin Zhenniang 林珍娘 Date of death: Confucian year 2468, 3rd month, 17th day = May 7, 1917 All the rest of the information is the same as on the headstone of her husband—including mention of the son adopted by the Guo family, Guo Jizhi. However, there is no use of the Guo surname along with the Huang/Oei surname, as on the other headstone. Perhaps this means—and this is just a guess—that when Liem Tien Nio died in 1917, Mr. Guo, the adoptive father of Guo Jizhi, was still alive but when Oei Yan Kioe died in 1928, Mr. Guo, the adoptive father of Guo Jizhi, had already died, causing Oei Yan Kioe (or his family members) to consider him to be the head of the Guo family as well as the Huang (Oei) family. In regard to the headstone of your great-grandparents Oei Twan Bie and Sie Hway Nio: His name in Mandarin: Huang Chuanmei 黃傳美 (note here that his name is slightly different from the one on his father’s headstone; I will get back to this in a moment) His date of death: February 7, 1950 Her name in Mandarin: Shi Huainiang 施懷娘 Her date of death: September 6, 1944 Sons: Qianyi, Qianren 謙益、謙仁 Daughters: Qianniang, Qiandunniang, Qianlunniang, Qianxiangniang 謙娘、謙敦娘、謙倫娘、謙香娘 The headstone of Oei Twan Bie and Sie Hway Nio is very problematic. I believe that either the person who instructed the headstone carver or the headstone carver himself was somewhat lacking in Chinese literacy, as there are a number of apparent errors. Remember that 16 years had passed from the time that Oei Yan Kioe died in 1928 and Sie Hway Nio died in 1944. Perhaps by that time, the ability of family members to read and write Chinese had declined, as often happens in overseas Chinese communities. In any case, many of the characters on this headstone do not match what is on the older headstones: The name of Oei Twan Bie is written here 傳美 (Chuanmei) instead of 端美 (Duanmei) The names of daughters 2, 3, and 4 have an extra character 謙 (Qian) in their names The name of the first daughter is written 謙 (Qian) instead of 儉 (Jian) The name of the third daughter is written 倫instead of 論 (both pronounced lun) Without seeing another source of information, it is impossible to tell which are the correct characters. But my rule in doing genealogical research is to trust first the oldest information. Following this rule, I would say that the characters on the headstones of Oei Yan Kioe and Liem Tien Nio are the ones that are correct. One last thing: the two characters at the top right and left are Anxi 安溪, which is a county in Fujian. But Shenzhai, the place mentioned on the headstones of Oei Yan Kioe and Liem Tien Nio, is not in Anxi County. Anxi here may be another error. Unless you can find someone outside China who has more genealogical information, you will have to go to China to learn more about your family roots. Greg Hello Greg Thanks for helping me so far So based on the gravestone, Oei Yan Kioe and Liem Tien Nio is from the same village? About anxi county listed on tombstone Oei Twan Bie is it possible it spelling sounds like an gwee? Because my grandfather once told my other older relatives that his village of origin was called an gwee or sounded like that This may be because Oei Twan Bie is not the biological child of Oei Yan Kioe therefore the village written there is probably the village of oei twan bie's biological father that is Tjioe Tjiong Ka On the gravestone is it explained in more detail about this anxi county? Maybe about the name of the village? One more thing, can you help me write Tjioe tjiong Ka in chinese script? How many possibillity pronunciations of Tjioe tjiong Ka when written in Chinese characters? I really want to know about this person, but very little information is available thx again greg
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Post by gckimm on Apr 22, 2017 11:18:48 GMT -5
Hi: The headstones of Oei Yan Kioe and Liem Tien Nio both have "Shenzhai" written on them. However, the headstones of married women sometimes carry the name of the husband's place of origin rather than their own. But it also possible that they came from the same place. Because Chinese is a tonal language, with many different characters pronounced the same way, it is impossible to figure out the correct characters for Tjiong Ka based only on the words as written in your family records. Also, you have to take into account that someone speaking Indonesian took the Chinese (Hokkien) pronunciation and then tried to find letters to represent it, so "Tjiong Ka" may or may not be close to the actual pronunciation in Chinese. If you find something in Chinese characters that might give us a clue, I would be happy to take a look at it. According to the online dictionary I have found, 安溪 could be pronounced "an-khe" or "an-khue," so I suppose something like "an-gwee" is a possibility. But I have to warn you again that I am totally unfamiliar with Hokkien. Your great-grandfather's headstone says nothing else about where his family might have originated, and Anxi is only the name of a county. You need the name of a village. You have been able to trace back to your great-great grandparents, which is not bad. Many people can't get past their grandparents. But I understand the desire to know more. That desire is what motivates people to keep trying. There are a couple of things you can do other than visit China. One is that you could write to the Quanzhou Office for Overseas Chinese Affairs. The address is here: 泉州市人民政府外事侨务办公室 泉州市丰泽区府东路东海行政中心交通科研楼A栋二楼 E-mail:wqb@fjqz.gov.cn I don't know how effective a message in English would be. Perhaps someone else on this forum has experience dealing with this office and would be able to give you direction. But in my experience in dealing with similar offices in Guangdong Province, a letter in Chinese gets results. I would send the information you have (photocopies would be good) and ask if you still have any relatives in the area. If the answer is yes, you could try contacting those people to see if there are any genealogical records. The other thing you could try is to visit one of the existing Huang family associations in Indonesia and see if anyone there can give you any information about your family or at least their place of origin. There is a list of Huang family associations in Indonesia here: visitbagan.blogspot.co.id/2011/12/alamat-perhimpunan-marga-huang-di.htmlBest of luck to you. Greg
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