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Post by douglaslam on Nov 1, 2015 23:40:24 GMT -5
Marlee and Philip, it is quite a breakthrough, we now have a name and Chungshan the county, my backyard. I can't make sense of the village name though. It is exciting stuff. When I log on the next time, probably back in Sydney on 5 November, a bigger surprise maybe in store for me. The resourcefulness of our panel of experts never ceases to amaze me. My regret is I couldn't carry on the panel's good work and do a field search. I am leaving for Canton this afternoon, then fly home on Wednesday night, 4 Nov.
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Post by marlee on Nov 3, 2015 3:29:22 GMT -5
Hi Amy! Thanks for all of this documents, apologies in coming back to you until now, I was carefully reviewing the documents and so far the only document that seems to really match is the one that stated Ignacio Ley Cam and Leticia Apodaca as parents of Heriberta Ley. I checked with my uncle and he recalls my grandma mentioning about a little sister dying. So the information would make sense. The other information about Ignacio Ley doesn't seem to match, There is a birth certificate of one of his sons in 1934 where it is stated his age (45 years old) so based on that the ages of the other guys doesn't match my great grandfather. This would only based trusting that he stated his real age in that birth certificate. I'm sure eventually a document with the right Ignacio will pop out!! I can't thank you enough for all the research you are doing. It is has been very hard to retrieve the information from Mexico, funny enough no one in the family seems to be interested as I'm in the subject. This will not stop me on my search. Will find the information either way. Best Regards! Marlee, Here is one more Ignacio from 1941 that also has a name written in Chinese and mentions a son named Lucio Ley. Amy
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Post by marlee on Nov 3, 2015 3:33:16 GMT -5
Hi Philip Is this based on Amy's last document? it doesn't seem to match as the age stated in that is doesn't match they aged he should be in that year. He stated to be 45 years old in 1934 when he registered his son under his same name, Ignacio Ley Cam. Hi Marlee, Re: Amy posting about an hour ago. As far as I could interpret the writing in Chinese characters (李悦志), he should be for LEY YEC CHEE or Lǐ Yuè Zhì (in Pinyin). 志 is part of my name and in my Minnan dialect it is Romanized as “Chee”
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Post by marlee on Nov 3, 2015 3:38:48 GMT -5
Hi Douglas! Sorry for the late response, it has been busy at work and sadly I haven't got any information from my family back at home. Seems like they may not be as interested in the subkets as I am. I hope you have a great trip back home to Sydney, perhaps we could, one day, have skype call, I would like to hear about Canton. You say there is a village where the last name Lee and Chung are used, so then we believe that Ignacio Lee and Mr Chung come both from that place, what would be name of that village? Is there information I could have a look? just to know more about that place? Thanks in advance Hi Marlee, it is heartening to see the progress you're making. I am sure one day, before too long, you'll get a positive identification of a name and village. I wasn't able to read the posts made or log on in the last two days because I was away. I did not get a chance to use a PC. The person's name who came close to Lee Cam, probably did not go abroad because those who did were recorded in the genealogy book. I'll give a more interesting photo report when I return home in a few days. Also, I can only input Chinese on my PC at home. I am not familiar with the Chinese software here. The village I did not call on hosts two main family names , that of Lee and Chong or Cheung 張 as it is spelt in Hong Kong. It matches our friend Philip's deduction that the family friend might have come from the same ancestral place. I don't have the time to call because I am leaving tomorrow for Guangzhou / Canton. I hope with the help of our panel of experts, you are going to put the pieces of the jigsaw together and get the big picture. All the best. Douglas
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Post by amy on Nov 3, 2015 10:22:05 GMT -5
You're very welcome, Marlee. Yes, my family is not always as interested in the genealogy research either -- though they are interested in the results of my research! I'm glad one of the documents seems to match. Another way to approach it is to search names of the person's immediate family. Sometimes you can find documents for them that contain information you can track back to the person you're researching. If you have names (and various spellings) of the children, I can try to run a search on those names. Good luck.
Amy
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Post by philiptancl on Nov 3, 2015 21:47:36 GMT -5
Hi Marlee,
There could be some confusion should we want to accurately determine the age according to Western way of computing the age for Chinese born during your great grandfather era. This would also me true for early Chinese immigrants to countries under Western jurisdiction. Traditionally, as I understand the system, a Chinese would be considered as 1 year old upon achieving full moon; i.e. when the baby is only one month old. Upon crossing Chinese New year, another year would be added. Therefore a person could only be just more than a month old by Western reckoning, but by traditional Chinese reckoning, he would already by 2 years old. When a person died, 3 years would be added on to his age. So when estimating the actual age by Western reckoning based upon age quoted as obituary, the actual age could be out by as much as 5 years.
When using the age quoted in documents during the early years of Chinese migration, one would need to bear this in mind when early Chinese migrants quote not only their age but also their date of birth. In so many cases that I find in Western documents for elderly Chinese, the dates of birth given on the documents do not tally. They would give the month and day of birth according to Chinese calendar and their age according to traditional Chinese way of quoting age. To resolve the issue, I would normally ask for their Chinese Zodiac sign they are born with. Knowing the approximate age, I could then determine the exact Gregorian date of birth. The problem would not arise when using their date of birth as recorded in traditional ancestral records, Jiapu (家譜), where the traditionally dates and times of birth and death are recorded. The only caution I could think of is for the Chinese day of the month when the occurrence happens to be between 11.00pm to 12.00 midnight. Between 11.00pm to 1.00am the next day, that time period would be recorded as the period of the Rat Zǐ (子), which would be first 2 hourly period of the day.
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Post by douglaslam on Nov 5, 2015 3:34:25 GMT -5
Hi Marlee, I am back home in Sydney. 涌頭 is the name of the village which hosts two main family names. But the name mentioned in the document does not come anywhere close to Chung Tow as it is in Cantonese. I tried Youtube for Chung Tow, it came up blank. I went to Baidu the Chinese search engine, there was nothing relevant came up. There is also another Lee village which has a large number of its villagers overseas called Hang Mei 恒美 again the name has only two characters. No match with what's on the document. Only one thing we are sure of, it is in Chungshan. I spent two nights in Canton, I visited a few places. This one en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Guangzhou_Uprising in particular, which I have returned time and time again. To me it is the most moving memorial, I try to include it on each of my visit to Canton. ----------------------------------------------- I said I would include photos with my report on my visit to China. I can't deliver on that promise because on my last stop at Canton, either through my own carelessness or the work of an artful pickpocket who relieved me of my camera and memory card. The card carries all my China and Europe trip images as well as shots taken over two years. It is not exaggerating to say it was devastating. Can't get over it. I was in Chungshan at the time of the annual big event of hosting dinner, giving out daily items like rice ,cooking oil and red packet to the elderly. Many villages also stage Cantonese opera to entertain everyone for free. I took so many photos of the events, the opera in particular, I had so many images which I could expand on to introduce members who aren't familiar with this great tradition of the opera going to its grassroots. Now, I have nothing to show. What a huge disappointment. Then there is the party of seventeen who came to their ancestral place for the first time bar one. I can only hope to " steal" from others who went on the trip in order to weave something cohesive rather than my own purposely selected shots.
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Post by Henry on Nov 5, 2015 8:51:23 GMT -5
Dear Douglas,
I'm very thankful for your safe return home.
Hopefully, the others in your group will have photos to share with you.
My very best regards,
Henry
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Post by douglaslam on Nov 5, 2015 15:47:01 GMT -5
Thanks Henry, I am particularly disappointed of not able to show aspects of Cantonese opera to our members who are not familiar with it. I went to not one or two opera performances, but six straight nights at two villages. Some villagers saved a good seat for me each night. One villager told me of how opera nights used to be in the past. It is a very enriching experience. I guess the older fellow villager was happy to have someone who would listen to his own past experiences as a youngster. Great verbal history.
A valuable lesson learned Henry.
Douglas
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Post by marlee on Nov 8, 2015 22:39:45 GMT -5
Hi Philip So We then don't really know his age, he may have registered his "Chinese Age" according to his tradition ? I'm guessing he would but as I don't know really the age he was born then I think it is going to be pretty hard to find out. Family has been really not interested in the subject so it has been really hard to get an answered from them... I think I will follow Amy's advice to try to track other family member, perhaps his other kids will show more information in the census or something like that. Hi Marlee, There could be some confusion should we want to accurately determine the age according to Western way of computing the age for Chinese born during your great grandfather era. This would also me true for early Chinese immigrants to countries under Western jurisdiction. Traditionally, as I understand the system, a Chinese would be considered as 1 year old upon achieving full moon; i.e. when the baby is only one month old. Upon crossing Chinese New year, another year would be added. Therefore a person could only be just more than a month old by Western reckoning, but by traditional Chinese reckoning, he would already by 2 years old. When a person died, 3 years would be added on to his age. So when estimating the actual age by Western reckoning based upon age quoted as obituary, the actual age could be out by as much as 5 years. When using the age quoted in documents during the early years of Chinese migration, one would need to bear this in mind when early Chinese migrants quote not only their age but also their date of birth. In so many cases that I find in Western documents for elderly Chinese, the dates of birth given on the documents do not tally. They would give the month and day of birth according to Chinese calendar and their age according to traditional Chinese way of quoting age. To resolve the issue, I would normally ask for their Chinese Zodiac sign they are born with. Knowing the approximate age, I could then determine the exact Gregorian date of birth. The problem would not arise when using their date of birth as recorded in traditional ancestral records, Jiapu (家譜), where the traditionally dates and times of birth and death are recorded. The only caution I could think of is for the Chinese day of the month when the occurrence happens to be between 11.00pm to 12.00 midnight. Between 11.00pm to 1.00am the next day, that time period would be recorded as the period of the Rat Zǐ (子), which would be first 2 hourly period of the day.
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Post by marlee on Nov 8, 2015 22:46:11 GMT -5
Hi Everyone!!
i've been away from the computer the last week, It has been very hard to collect more information from my family. My auntie keeps telling me she would send one more picture of him and I've been begging but she said she has been "too busy" ...my in other side my uncle was going to send me a list of names of all my grandma's siblings and I have got nothing either!! This is so frustrating !! Don't understand why people don't want to understand their own roots. I know I eventually will get more information !
Thanks for your patience
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Post by philiptancl on Nov 9, 2015 2:31:32 GMT -5
Hi Marlee,
Be patient. It took my friend June Chen from Queensland, Australia some six years of search before she could finally found her husband Chen/Chin/Chan/Tan (陳) ancestry.
Philip
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Post by helen on Nov 15, 2015 20:24:35 GMT -5
My first visit to Zhongshan 11 November 2015
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Post by marlee on Nov 18, 2015 17:29:19 GMT -5
Hi Everyone!! This is the second and last picture that the family have!
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Post by douglaslam on Nov 19, 2015 7:46:57 GMT -5
Marlee, with valuable help from fellow members you were doing quite well in peeling away the layers. We now have a name, and the county or district he came from ,Chungshan, that is a great leap forward. We need the village name, the one appeared on the document makes little sense. Perhaps our tech savvy helpers can do a search on the village data base. to find a likely match.
Don't be disheartened by the indifference of other family members. One day they'll have you to thank for. As I often say, in every generation, there is always one or two individuals who want to know the whys and wherefores, and a closure to their true selves. And I had a group of seventeen Australians with me last month to fulfill that urge to know. You will have the last laugh.
I am ready to help you if the village is in Chungshan. I can usually break down barriers among fellow Chungshan compatriots. I had success of sort in finding member andrewAU's family link also in October. I want you to be a winner for your perseverance.
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